Feddit.org admins have responded to the recent controversy about the pro-Israel censorship on !europe@feddit.org and elsewhere on their instance. I thought I’d repost it here for greater visibility (since it’s posted in a mainly German language comm). Also, there’s a fair bit of comment removal going on in there, and the contents are not being shown in the modlog, so it’s a bit hard to tell what’s being removed and how it’s affecting the discussion.

TLDR: They stand fully behind the mods of !europe@feddit.org and their actions (Edit: Because the law, or at least the way the law is being enforced, says they have to)

!Europe@feddit.org mods have also spoken up: https://lemsha.re/feddit.org/post/12550375 (https://feddit.org/post/12550375). Their stance seems to be “We live in Germany, and we don’t want the cops breaking down our door. Here’s some examples”. And that’s totally reasonable, I get that and if I lived under that law I’d be behaving the same way. The question then is, should the biggest europe-centric comm be hosted and modded in such a way that criticism about one of Europe’s most powerful nations isn’t allowed?

Alternative Europe-centric comm, if you’re looking for something censorship-free: !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com

You can find their post here: https://lemsha.re/feddit.org/post/12529640 (https://feddit.org/post/12529640)

Previous post about their behaviour: https://lemsha.re/sh.itjust.works/post/37918115 (https://sh.itjust.works/post/37918115)

@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com, let me know if this is outside the boundaries of this comm and I’ll move it elsewhere. I’m mainly posting here as a follow up to the previous post.

Quote of their post follows:

Hello everyone,

in the last few days there have been some accusations against the moderators of !europe@feddit.org as well as against our admin team of being Nazis or Zionists, mainly because of the way of dealing with criticism of Israel.

We explicitly reject these accusations and will not tolerate such accusations. In particular, people who accuse others in this way without any concrete objective reason are not welcome on feddit.org. This is already covered by our rule of respectful interaction.

First of all, we would like to remind you that the use of feddit.org must be compliant with the rights and regulations of the DACH region. This is explicitly mentioned in our instance rules, and includes Germany (D), Austria (A) and Switzerland (CH). The infrastructure of feddit.org is maintained by the Fediverse Foundation, a non-profit association in Austria. Our Admin team, which takes care of the instance wide moderation, organization and supporting infrastructure operations, is based in Germany. Since we primarily target the German speaking coutries, we also try to comply with laws and regulations of Switzerland.

Even if we do not have to actively search for violations of the law, it is necessary to intervene after becoming aware of them. This includes, for example when moderators or admins receive messages about posts or comments, but also when such content is discovered by chance when browsing Lemmy.

https://www.wko.at/internetrecht/providerhaftung

In the case of “hosting”, the service provider has limited liability if the provider

  • has no actual knowledge of specific unlawful activities or content and is not aware of any facts or circumstances with regard to claims for damages from which the unlawful activity or content is obvious, and
  • as soon as it obtains this knowledge or awareness, takes swift action to block access to the illegal content or to remove it.

Relevant criminal offenses include the following:

Legal instruments against the dissemination of anti-Semitic statements or statements condoning terrorist acts of the German Parliament (German)

excerpt, unofficial translation

Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.

  • From 2.1.1 Criminal condoning of criminal acts

According to Section 140 No. 2 StGB, anyone who publicly condones certain types of unlawful acts listed in Sections 140, 138 and 126 StGB in a manner that is likely to disturb the public peace is liable to prosecution. Such related offenses include murder (§ 211 StGB), manslaughter (§ 212 StGB), genocide (§ 6 VStGB), crimes against humanity (§ 7 VStGB), war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 VStGB) and aggression (§ 13 VStGB), but also various offenses directed against sexual self-determination or personal freedom…”

  • From 2.1.2 Incitement to hatred

Pursuant to Section 130(1) StGB, anyone who, in a manner likely to disturb the public peace, 1. incites hatred against a national, racial, religious or ethnic group, against parts of the population or against an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population, incites violence or arbitrary measures or 2. attacks the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming a designated group, parts of the population or an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population"(…)”1. distributes or makes available to the public any content (Section 11(3)) or offers, provides or makes available to a person under the age of eighteen any content (Section 11(3)) that a) incites violence or arbitrary measures against persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a), or c) attacks the human dignity of persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a) by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming them, or 2. produces, obtains, supplies, keeps in stock, offers, advertisements or undertakes to import or export content referred to in number 1 letters a to c (§ 11 paragraph 3) in order to use it in the sense of number 1 or to enable another person to make such use of it.”

  • From 2.1.3 Incitement to hatred related to crimes under international law

"As of December 2022, the new criminal offense of incitement to hatred related to a crime under international law was introduced in Section 130 (5) StGB. According to this, it is a criminal offense to publicly condone an act of the type specified in Sections 6 to 12 of the German Criminal Code against one of the majorities of persons specified in Section 130 (1) No. 1 of the German Criminal Code in a manner that is likely to incite hatred or violence against such a majority of persons and to disturb public peace…”

  • From 2.1.4 Formation and support of terrorist organizations

Pursuant to Section 129a(1) StGB, “(1) Whoever establishes an association (Section 129(2)) whose purposes or whose activities are directed towards 1. murder (§ 211) or manslaughter (§ 212) or genocide (§ 6 of the International Criminal Code) or crimes against humanity (§ 7 of the International Criminal Code) or war crimes (§§ 8, 9, 10, 11 or § 12 of the International Criminal Code) or 2. offenses against personal freedom in the cases of § 239a or § 239b (…), or whoever participates in such an association as a member ”

  • From 2.1.5 Disseminating propaganda material of terrorist organizations and using their emblems

“Finally, it is also a punishable offense to disseminate propaganda material of terrorist organizations and to use their emblems (Sections 86, 86a StGB).”

Section 130 Incitement of masses

excerpt, unofficial translation

Translated through deepl.com. May not be fully accurate from a legal perspective.

(3) Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or downplays an act committed under the rule of National Socialism of the child indicated in section 6 (1) of the Code of Crimes against International Law in a manner suited to causing a disturbance of the public peace incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or a fine.

(4) Whoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner which violates the dignity of the victims by approving, glorifying or justifying National Socialist tyranny and arbitrary rule incurs a penalty of imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or a fine.

Some further links, mostly in German:

In this instance, we fully support the moderators of !europe@feddit.org to potentially remove too much rather than too little in case of legal uncertainties.

One of the triggers for the current debate is this post, which followed the removal of a comment comparing National Socialism with the current situation in Israel, which can be considered a trivialization of National Socialism. Such statements can, among other things, lead to imprisonment. Among other things, the post claimed that the removal had a Zionist motive, an accusation that should always be supported by appropriate evidence and prior to which it should be ruled out that there are alternative explanations.

We will not be removing every comment that goes even remotely in this direction, but we reserve the right to permanently ban users from feddit.org who make unfounded accusations, such as labeling our instance, admins, moderators, or other users as Nazis or Zionists, without substantial supporting arguments. This is especially the case when this is recurring behavior and not an isolated incident.

This includes content such as this post by @Deceptichum@quokk.au, who was banned from our instance shortly before that post due to multiple incitements of violence and terrorism. This person also seems to be the admin of the instance quokk.au, or at least to have good relations to the admin, since we received a censure on Fediseer from quokk.au around the same time, in which we are being accused of being Zionists and Nazis, and @Deceptichum@quokk.au has suggested [to defederate quokk.au from us].

If this censure by quokk.au is not withdrawn in a timely manner, we will defederate quokk.au from our side for these unsubstantiated and untrue accusations. quokk.au is a relatively small instance with only a few local users, which tried to build an alternative news community that is not on one of the “big” instances. Unfortunately, this community also seems to be a poor alternative if this is how their admin typically acts.

:::

  • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
    31·
    7 days ago

    I’m going to let this up, since it might affect future posts in YPTB. But I think we need some sort of [tag] to assign to these posts to make them easily findable in the comm. It can’t be [meta] since that should be about comm-internals. Any ideas?

  • Ganbat@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    131·
    5 days ago

    So… because it’s hosted in Germany… it’s functionally illegal to criticize the (Israeli) government? The irony of that is painful.

    • neons@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      39·
      4 days ago

      No. You’re allowed to croticize it obviously. Whoever told you that ridiculous lie is lying to you. Don’t let yourself be fooled.

      I’ll even prove it to you: Nettanyahu is an authoritarian that flirts with fascism. I am worried by the complete diaregard for palestinian life and the war crimes in the region.

      All completely legal

      What you’re not allowed to do is say israel doesn’t have a right to exist or say that the actions of the israeli government are representative of jews in general. Because that’s not criticism, that’s anti-semitism.

        • neons@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          19·
          3 days ago

          If you don’t know what dofferentiates nazism from fascism in general, you’re allowed to just not answer at all

          • FelixCress@lemmy.world
            41·
            3 days ago

            If you don’t know what dofferentiates nazism from fascism in general, you’re allowed to just not answer at all

            I do know sweetie, unlike yourself. You are allowed to not answer.

              • FelixCress@lemmy.world
                81·
                3 days ago

                Firstly, it is a “Jew” - capital letter as it is a name of nationality.

                Secondly number of Jews are antisemitic and some people are even making an argument that Zionist movement is antisemitic, although this is not what I referred to - see below.

                Thirdly, Nazis believe that certain races are inferior. Nazis remain nazis, only their targets change. Now nazis believe that Palestinians (and Arabs in general, apart from Saudis of course) are inferior.

                • neons@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                  17·
                  3 days ago

                  Firstly, it is a “Jew” - capital letter as it is a name of nationality.

                  I’m asking you to elaborate on that one. Because the way I read this, you’re just blatantly anti-semitic.

                  Secondly number of Jews are antisemitic and some are even making an argument that Zionist movement is antisemitic, although this is not what I referred to - see below.

                  Number of jews is antisemitic? Do you know what antisemitism is? It’s pseudoscience for jewhate. the same as racism.

                  Thirdly, Nazis believe that certain races are inferior. Nazis remain nazis, only their targets change. Now nazis believe that Palestinians (and Arabs in general, apart from Saudis of course) are inferior.

                  Nazism is a specific form of fascism as it was lived and propagated by hitlers Nazi-Regimd during WW2 (shocker). A key pillar of Nazism is antisemitism.

                  Nazism is literally just hitler-flavoured fascism.

                  If you don’t follow hitlers flavour, you’re a normal fascist (which is just as vad as nazism btw)

        • neons@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          16·
          3 days ago

          Posting the popular opinion while adding nothing to thw discussion

          Dang, I thought we left Karmafarming behind on Reddit

      • Ganbat@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        5·
        4 days ago

        Careful, the Feddit admins will ban you for saying that kind of thing because it goes against German laws against antisemitism.

        Sarcasm is dead.

        Edit: I actually completely missed the most ironic element of your comment the first time.

        What you’re not allowed to do is say […] that the actions of the israeli government are representative of jews in general.

        You mean… like Feddit admins are doing… which they say is to comply with German law…? Use context, homie.

  • flicker@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    83·
    4 days ago

    No one who has been paying attention is surprised.

    As I’ve said in the last however many posts people made to YPTB about feddit- yes, you guys have been breaking the rules. But these rules are fucked, so that is a good thing!

    Do the unlawful thing in a space where the laws are wrong and immoral and unjust! Why is this so hard to understand? Get banned by assholes! Wear that shit with pride! Call a nazi a nazi to their face! Anyone protecting nazis is a bastard! Scream that genocide is real! Getting banned from an online space isn’t even a slap on the wrist. It’s so barely inconvenient, it’s literally the least you can do!

  • Omega@discuss.online
    141·
    6 days ago

    Just because they speak German doesn’t mean their servers have to be hosted in Germany

    I rather see a fundraising effort and a temporary lock on Comms related to politics just to fix this.

    They doubled down, so I don’t expect this happening, I just hope it is shunned and defederated, just like Lemmy was meant to be used.

  • Draconic NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    171·
    6 days ago

    I saw this the other day and in that time I immediately deleted my account on Feddit.org. I’m not going to associate myself with this server if they are going to uphold and support Zionism. I don’t care if it is for German law or not. Also their whining and complaining about defederation is laughable and makes them seem more petty than lemmy.ml, who didn’t whine and complain and threaten counter defederation when they got blocked by any of these other servers.
    This is a historic moment because it’s the first time that a server I’ve joined has ended up becoming one of the few servers I actively work to embargo however I feasibly can.

  • Quokka@quokk.au
    235·
    6 days ago

    I don’t think they realise I can’t see any messages from them as we de-federated days ago. As for the record, I am not @Deceptichum but I rarely use Lemmy and trust their input here and what they’ve shown me is validation enough.

    The fact that Feddit.org is more upset about the comparison to Nazi’s than they are for allowing genocide deniers to exist on their instance is reason enough for our position to continue. If Feddit.org can show serious systematic changes in how it deals with its hate speech problem, we may consider changing our stance in the future.

    • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
      92·
      6 days ago

      It is only hate speech if the Israeli genocide is questioned in any matter not approved by the clown German regime 🤡

  • daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    131·
    6 days ago

    I had some completely unrelated issue with those mods. But it led to me abandoning and blocking that community.

    Being a mod is not easy. No everyone is fit for it. I’m bot specially harsh as I, myself, am not fitted to be a mod.

    There’s not shame in stepping back if things got out of hand. If things are going so complicated, specially with severe legal issues involved, and potentially a lot of people not happy with the way they do things, maybe is better just to stop and let others try to mod an EuropeanCentric community.

    I’m going to go and try !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com I’ve always felt great affinity with how decisions are made in this instance, so I’m hopeful.

  • SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world
    239·
    7 days ago

    Oh so they aren’t Nazis and Zionists, they’re just poor little cowards who so scared they support Nazis and Zionists.

  • Cait@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    1611·
    7 days ago

    A lot of comments don’t seem to understand what’s the explanation, in essence they say comparing the Gaza genocide to the Nazi era, downplays the Nazi era, which is illegal in Germany. Its not about criticism of Zionism, but comparing it to the Nazis era

        • electric_nan@lemmy.ml
          2·
          1 day ago

          Sure, but I’d say it’s worth taking such testimonials into consideration, especially when we can see with our own eyes the wanton and wholesale destruction of innocent lives by the Zionist regime.

          • Pixelmatsch@feddit.org
            21·
            1 day ago

            What if literal holocaust survivors are offended by this comparison though? Because that is a thing as well.

    • grue@lemmy.world
      131·
      6 days ago

      in essence they say comparing the Gaza genocide to the Nazi era, downplays the Nazi era

      The underlying assumption there is that the Gaza genocide isn’t as bad as the Nazi genocide, which is itself racist against Palestinians.

      In reality, they’re not downplaying the Nazi genocide, but instead trying to make a point that the Gaza genocide is really really bad too.

      • Pixelmatsch@feddit.org
        22·
        1 day ago

        So what you’re saying is that Gaza is a planned, industrial genocide with its literally only aim the extermination of all Palestinians? I’m only asking to find out what your actual position is so I can know if we disagree on facts or on feelings.

        • grue@lemmy.world
          22·
          1 day ago

          So are you saying that you think you can calculate ethics using arithmetic, or are you ignorant of the progression of the Holocaust (e.g. how the reason the “final solution” was called “final” was because previous “solutions” to removing Jews et al. from German-occupied territories proved more logistically difficult than expected) and how the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians seems to be following in lockstep?

            • grue@lemmy.world
              1·
              1 day ago

              Well those are the only two legitimate possibilities, so what the fuck are you saying if not one of them? That you’re just an antisemitic (note: Palestinians are Semites too) genocide-denier? I’m only asking to find out what your actual position is so I can know if we disagree on facts or on feelings.

              • Pixelmatsch@feddit.org
                12·
                1 day ago

                I guess that’s what you think is happening. I’m not a genocide-denier in relation to what’s happening in Gaza, thanks for asking. Btw, since you have now devolved into implicit name-calling, I no longer care to find out what you think. Hope you can find peace.

                • grue@lemmy.world
                  2·
                  1 day ago

                  LOL, you start off in bad faith asking bullshit ‘gotcha’ questions, and now you have the utter fucking gall to try to claim moral high ground?

                  What I’ve done isn’t a devolution; it’s self-defense. You’re just butthurt I didn’t fall for your ploy.

                  But sure, if that’s what you want, I’ll make it explicit: you’re a toxic POS and have been since our first interaction.

      • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
        8·
        6 days ago

        Only the shoah matters dear… Germans think that as long as they apologized to the Jews they have redeemed themselves.

        All while glossing over atrocities on eastern front because those guys deserved it

      • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
        27·
        6 days ago

        If one genocide is lesser in scale or severity it can be (and has been) argued it is downplaying it.

        There are very few genocides you can directly compare to the Holocaust as its scale and speed was unprecedented even for the time.

        I’m unsure you can compare any other genocide to the Holocaust in accordance with German law.

        • Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          7·
          5 days ago

          There are very few genocides you can directly compare to the Holocaust as its scale and speed was unprecedented even for the time.

          It’s hard to define any genocide as worse or better than another, genocide is bad in every way shape and form. I could argue that in terms of scale and effectiveness there are many contenders which would be worse than the holocaust. The Genocide of the native Americans was several orders of magnitude greater in scale but also in time, and also in effectiveness wiping out 95% of them. It was significantly slower though going on over a few hundred years. So it’s difficult to compare them.

          I’m unsure you can compare any other genocide to the Holocaust in accordance with German law.

          They would never acknowledge any as being worse due to personal shame and trying to codify acceptable speech through law. Even if it killed more people, in a shorter amount of time and forced said population or culture to extinction entirely. They would probably never admit it unless it would make Germany look better.

          • Pixelmatsch@feddit.org
            2·
            1 day ago

            You can always define a ranking. Being not ok with the words “better” or “worse” in talking about that ranking is purely emotional response. There is an objective ranking of genocides, but that does not change that everyone agrees (at least everyone I can think of on feddit.org, including all mods) that every single genocide is completely unacceptable.

      • Grapho@lemmy.ml
        5·
        5 days ago

        What do literal Holocaust survivors and their families (see: Normal Finkelstein) know tho? I wanna see what white Europeans think about genocide before I make up my mind

  • rumschlumpel@feddit.org
    48·
    6 days ago

    I’m personally not a fan of the legal situation, but you can’t mod or admin from prison and evading a country’s law is pretty hard in the long run if you live in that country.

    The question then is, should the biggest europe-centric comm be hosted and modded in such a way that criticism about one of Europe’s most powerful nations isn’t allowed?

    You can discuss whether this legal situation is wrong or not and whether the German government should support certain countries, though, if you don’t include stuff like “you’re a nazi/zionist/etc.” (usually unhelpful, anyway) or “this country should be destroyed” (I don’t think it’s super necessary for discussing Germany, unless you also want to destroy Germany).

    That said, I agree that it’s probably better to move English-language discussions of that topic to a different instance; German law enforcement is pretty gung-ho on that topic and frequently breaches the law itself.

    • 野麦さん@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      112·
      6 days ago

      Simping for the government is passivity. It’s complacency. Hey, watch this: I want to assassinate the leader of AfD! With a bullet! To the temple!

      I steal shit, I have sex in public, I advocate for violence and I’ll do it proudly. If you’re not willing to go to prison for what you believe in, then you don’t really believe it now do you?

      • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        91·
        5 days ago

        You’re so based for this.

        If you’re not willing to go to prison for what you believe in, then you don’t really believe it now do you?

        Not at all. I’d rather go to prison for my ethics and morals than sell out and be a good little mindless worker drone, obeying all the laws I am told.

      • rumschlumpel@feddit.org
        24·
        5 days ago

        Good for you, but I don’t think it’s alright to just demand it from others, especially not in this way (like telling people they’re nazis if they don’t want to go to prison).

          • rumschlumpel@feddit.org
            28·
            5 days ago

            Do you call every German under the nazi regime who didn’t speak out out of fear a nazi?

              • Pixelmatsch@feddit.org
                1·
                1 day ago

                How many times have you been jailed fighting for your beliefs and what was it for? Asking for context so I know if you apply your own standards to yourself.

                • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
                  1·
                  1 day ago

                  Nothing yet, but I’d have people punch for me standing up to racists. I have scars to prove it.

                  I have been beaten, verbally assaulted, and been ostracized from social places because I stand for what I believe in. Sometimes its “I don’t think we should tolerate Nazis” to “Why are you recording this public space, there’s nothing wrong happening, this is a waste of the money you could use to improve this space.”

                  I haven’t been arrested yet, nor the people who punched me because the cops were on their side. But I’m sure someday I’ll be arrested and sent to Gitmo because I questioned Trump’s actions.

    • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
      9·
      6 days ago

      Zionism is an insult to anyone who subscribes to western multi cultural model of governance but some how in Germany naming the enemy is a crime 🤡