Sparking

You are describing a scenario similar to the Texas power grid where that has indeed happened and then prices go up anyway as services are knocked out from a lack of investment in infrastructure. Similar stuff happens today when a vulnerability in S3 emerges or something like that. It is still a race to the bottom, and we have absolutely seen stagnation in service offerings.

The Independent System Operator (ISO) system works extremely well to field multiple producers and negotiate for the best rates among competition. It’s one of the reasons why we all take electricity for granted, unless you live in Texas or on a less serious scale Arizona where two corprorate entities are grandfathered in to manage the supply, they enjoy a duopoly and the rates for the service is not very competitive.

I think you are dicounting how simple most cloud applications are - compute cores, bucket storage and virtual Networks make up the vast majority, with block storage and serverless compute probably making up a second to everything else being a distant third. I agree that there is specialization involved, but I also believe that regulation could go a long way to ensuring better access and making it possible for more competition. Right now, only a few companies have a monopoly on the datacenter infrastructure itself.

This is actually a lot more similar to power Utilities, which hides a vast and complex system of demand based generation that is hidden by ISOs. A regulatory system could work really well, and deliver much more and better service at lower prices. Otherwise we will see Cloud providers raising prices and offering deals more towards the large enterprises that can build billing support, which was the original complaint.

Not that I think we are close to that. Legislation around technology is woefully bad and behind in the US at least.

The government can get a lot tougher on companies than they currently are in the US. There is a large and somewhat unstoppable public distrust of corporations that will swing the pendulum away from distrust of the government. Whatever part of the federal government that people didn’t trust is having their image re-rehabilitated by DOGE’s idioacy anyway. Corporations will do sneaky lobbying and everything, but at the end of the day they will follow laws that are enforced properly. They don’t have miliataries or private police forces. At least not yet.

I would hope to see cloud service providers fall more under a utility type of regulation, and have the government set up regional ISOs that can buy and distribute services to everyone at regulated prices, and adhere to certain computing standards. This is why I don’t get too mad at billing deals and schemes - if computation, storage, and virtual network infrastructure can be standardized and treated as a utility it would be great for everyone! They deserve to get paid for the power they have to consume and the maintenance and operations cost of a datacenter.

Instead, we see these companies play a very tricky game using the egress costs to capture traffic and activity within their infrastructure. The same strategy applies at Google with ads dictating browser development, at Amazon’s winners and losers based retail business, and everyone’s race to the bottom stealing data for hungry AI model training. It doesn’t work Jim. We need to establish fair legislation for democratizing access to computing and storage at a large scale, the same way we already did with internet access. Instead, we are seeing it go the wrong way with the corporate war against net neutrality from service providers, which is bad for cloud services anyway. In my area, cox was doing some bad stuff, which finally prompted google to come in and deliver fiber they had been teasing for around a decade, which drove costs way down for internet. So hopefully all this stuff will work itself out, but we really need to focus on empowering everyone with access to computation and ownership of their data.

For work, I am lucky enough to work for an employer that has enough pull with AWS that they essentially have to listen to us. But I prefer their open market and transparent, if complicated, pricing to trying to work though a deal with a dozen different other software platform vendors all trying to close business and screw over our clients. Even their sales people are pretty well incentivize to drive service consumption rather than promote lock in. This is leading to a huge problem in AI, but once again I respect the approach AWS is taking with hugging face and making it about flexible consumption than what microsoft and google are doing, trying to shove AI down your throat.

Yes, vendor lock in is always a concern around AWS. I am of 2 minds about this - the real trade off with on demand resources is cost as AWS has to essentially have hot instances ready for customers, which cost them more to run. So it definitely makes sense to have these billing options that help them save operational overhead and then pass the savings on to their customers.

But it is a fine line. What should be AWS responsibility and what should be the customers? Amazon’s whole deal is trying to step over it it ways that will ultimately be monopolistic. Personally, I am much more concerned with the egress costs, which is their true and much sneakier vendor lock in trap.

To me, the only answer is government regulation. We should treat cloud resources as a utility and regulate it as such to make sure that the large players don’t abuse their monopoly on compute power and servers. Instead, the government’s answer has been to do away with net neutrality, which really only makes them more powerful because they still have a monopoly on the physical resources. This is one of the reasons why I have become self hosted for my own personal technology - but for work there are a lot of benefits to just shutting up and working with a monopoly that at least has to try to drive down costs at some level to prevent regulatory action.

These services only make sense at scale and with large projects that need a ton of planning everyday. AWS will take the little people’s money if they are willing to give it, but they aren’t truly interested in their business.

Yes, that is why I said enterprise scale. Pricing for personal stuff is pretty terrible, although it is reasonable in some ways.

I find AWS prices to be very reasonable, but it is much different than going race to the bottom deal hunting on hetzner. That’s definitely where you want to go deal hunting, but it isn’t suitable for a lot of enterprise applications.

With the bigger CSPs, you really have to take care of the billing yourself to get the best value. Last year, my team was able to cut our client’s cloud bill by 85% while improving service. Kind of unfair - AWS will happily take your money to do stuff incorrectly. They have business units at AWS around customer success that aims to help cut costs, but I can kind of tell they aren’t a priority at the company compared to account execs. Pretty normal for this business, unfortunately.

Let’s be clear here: I would never say that about oracle.

But yeah, idk what to tell you. What cloud service vendor have you had a better experience with than AWS? Genuinely curious. Do you really like GCP? I have had some good experiences, but I feel some of their services can be a miss. If you say Azure or IBM, I won’t believe you. For projects that I would consider enterprise scale, I don’t take anyone else seriously.

Enterprise is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I would never use them for my smaller scale personal stuff. I would recommend something like Digital Ocean to smaller devs, but for personal projects I think self hosted is the way to go.

Just make them put support for manifest v2 back.

For lower end, absolutely. For higher end enterprise space? Not so much. For me, AWS is the gold standard for product support and price at enterprise scale, and I do think I have ever worked on an enterprise application that could orchestrate 100% on its own (only for bad reasons, this is what I do at home).

I do hope a lack of reliance on these services leads to better technological solutions to come out of Europe and make its way back to the states. The enterprise made the Faustian bargain with these CSPs, and although the cloud networking is somewhat nice, the applications are a disaster.

Yeah, I’m not even that down on using LLMs to search through and organize text that it was trained on. But in it’s current iteration? It’s fancy stack overflow, but stack overflow runs on like 6 servers. I’ll be setting up some LLM stuff self hosted to play around with it, but I’m not ditching my brain’s ability to write software any time soon.

What are you guys working on where chatgpt can figure it out? Honestly, I haven’t been able to get a scrap of working code beyond a trivial example out of that thing or any other LLM.

No I agree, that’s what I’m trying to say. Open source is the only way to create better software, but the software we have is pretty good. Better software won’t cure what ails us.

I know, this is a bummer for me too.

It’s a useless discussion open source is as good as to is gonna get technology wise. Their will always be a problem as long as profitable enterprise is what people rely on to make a living and feed their families. Fixing that requires more than open source software.

It’s so mindbending to see people that nerdanwere yelling about on the Internet about drm and micro transactions literally protect rapists and abusers. Like, we tried warning everyone.

Honestly, might be a good thing kinda. Adoption in the front end world is out of control.

God forbid the chains of earning a living and feeding your family.

McConnel really went to bat for this dude, it’s hilarious.

I don’t really understand why bezos would try to cozy up to musk to compete for rocket contracts. He would want to be fighting this right? Just goes to show how gutless and stupid these guys really are.

I asked this exact thing somewhere else, and the best answers I got were:

• there is a somewhat legitimate motivation for fedora to package their own flatpaks in the context of their atomic desktops project.
• they started doing this before flathub was established, and it was a better idea at that time.

So, as per usual with Linux, there are some obscure and historical reasons this is a thing, but it is useless for the majority of users. Fedora should really not have it configured as the default source for flatpaks out of the box

It’s really the keyboard activists. You would be surprised.