With surveys reporting that an increasing number of young men are subscribing to these beliefs, the number of women finding that their partners share the misogynistic views espoused by the likes of Andrew Tate is also on the rise. Research from anti-fascism organisation Hope Not Hate, which polled about 2,000 people across the UK aged 16 to 24, discovered that 41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
“Numbers are growing, with wives worried about their husbands and partners becoming radicalised,” says Nigel Bromage, a reformed neo-Nazi who is now the director of Exit Hate Trust, a charity that helps people who want to leave the far right.
“Wives or partners become really worried about the impact on their family, especially those with young children, as they fear they will be influenced by extremism and racism.”
Just use a manometer.
Toxic masculinity, feeding itself, empowered by the forces of capital who desires culture war above class war.
God damit this sentence makes me want to blow my brains out. It’s too fucking thick in bullshit. You ever notice how the right will just call someone a pedo or gang member and that really works. It’s not like they go " he’s just socioeconomic poverty based victim of modern prison system" like just get to that point. Andrew is a grown man who targets children.
That’s… Their point? Either you misread what they said or you wrote your response wrong.
I love just saying “toxic masculinity” anywhere online, even if you’re deep in the bowels of Lemmy, you will get a few reactionary turds who just see the term and lose all cognitive ability to think and mash the downvote button between heated breaths and tears streaming down their faces.
edit: and it continues, very predictable. Seriously guys, just be honest if the term makes you feel shit, you will find truth by pursuing those feelings and the questions around them, literally you will figure out why you’re actually unhappy. Don’t pull back, push through. Yes, I am provoking, and if it’s provocation that has an effect on you, that’s a HUGE sign that you can figure out a big truth about yourself and the world if you spend like, 30 minutes in uncomfortable silence asking yourself “why” about things and being painfully honest in your replies until you hit bedrock.
^ This reply shows me you don’t understand what men like Andrew Tate are selling. He’s selling validation to these boys and men, and you’re providing a perfect marketplace for that product to sell like hot cakes.
When you reply like that to these people, the mental picture of grown men having hissy fits and “mashing downvote buttons with tears in their eyes” might feel good in the moment, but those men and boys aren’t actually reacting like that. Instead, the message they get is they were right the whole time, that people like you really do just hate men and masculinity, and that people like Andrew Tate are the ones “on their side”.
I get that it feels good to trigger people you don’t like, but all you’re doing is making Andrew Tate’s job easier. Don’t you think he’s already making enough money as it is?
Well said. Looking down on impressionable men with this sort of smug contempt is how we go further down the path.
Thank you, and I fully agree. I truly hope we’re not so far down that path that bringing these boys back to sanity is impossible. Liberal western society spent a lot of time neglecting these boys, and that’s ruined a ton of trust these boys once had in society.
Literally all that right-wing extremists like Tate had to do is tell these boys, “Hey, everyone seems to think you’re the problem. I’m here to tell you that you aren’t a problem - rather, they are the problem, and here’s how to deal with them and get yourself ahead” and before you know it, they were eating out of the palm of his hand.
It’s pretty clear to me that looking at boys as “the problem” instead of as human beings has a lot to do with the mess we’re in right now.
Can I look down on them with disgust instead?
Can I look down on them with disgust instead?
Andrew Tate would probably thank you for doing so. Without contempt and disgust from folks like you, he wouldn’t have nearly as large of an audience, nor such an obscene amount of money.
If they need validation from the likes of grifters and scumbags like Andrew Tate then they are already too far gone.
He’s a fucking tool, and I have no idea why he appeals to young men. There’s so many other, manlier, kinder folks out there who can provide that same validation.
I disagree. Maybe if they received validation from their families and community, they wouldn’t need validation from grifters? I think it says quite a bit about society when people feel the need to purchase the same kind of validation that they used to receive for free from their own communities in ages past.
Nobody likes being told they’re worthless, they’re a loser, they’re an incel, or a “stupid bro”, or that all of their struggles aren’t valid. If everyone around them is telling them those things - Including you - Then validation becomes a rare and valuable commodity… A commodity that someone like Tate can make a lot of money selling to people.
There’s so many other, manlier, kinder folks out there who can provide that same validation.
And yet, those “other, manlier, kinder folks” are not out there doing that, are they? Instead, many of them are calling these people losers and incels and lost causes beyond all redemption, just like you are right now.
Why should they listen to those “other, manlier, kinder folks” when they aren’t acting very kind to them?
Maybe they’re too far gone, but you’re talking about impressionable young boys, like 10-16. At those ages we as a society agree that a lot of all childrens personalities aren’t dictated by their own choices since they lack the life experiences and cognitive abilities to function as an adult. Instead they’re highly impressionable, influenced by their social sphere and nowadays their social media feeds.
So sure, maybe you could say they’re fucked from the jump, but understand that they are not taking as active of a role in who’s forming their thought processes like a 25 year old getting hooked on Tate is.
I’ve been a 10-16 year old boy. At no point was anyone like Andrew Tate “cool” to me. He’s not witty, he’s not talented, he’s done nothing XTREME. He’s clearly putting up a massive front to pretend to be interesting and for some reason - microplastics, smart phone addiction, whatever - it’s working.
Back in the 90s we would have called him “poser.”
Tate just talks into a microphone with his stupid friends. If that’s what is considered “cool” to today’s teenagers then they’re definitely too far gone.
I honestly don’t even know what to say lol. How do you think anyone forms an identity ever? We have - I was going to type decades - but centuries of case studies and writing about why people get roped into cults of personality and insane belief systems despite looking like lunatics from the outside.
What do you even think is happening to these people? Based on your previous reply the answer is “I have no idea” which should tell you you should look a little deeper into what’s happening.
Yah I used to one-on-one real-life coaching and mentoring, I’ve done my time, I’ve done my service, I’ve had several boys who became men send me letters thanking me for “saving their life” so I disagree about ALL of this, we shouldn’t be expecting anything with our stupid online chatter. This whole post is useless compared to actually getting out and talking to people, making an actual impact on someone’s life. The one thing that NOBODY wants to actually do. None of you readers out there want to talk to some incel and listen to their problems and give them actual help.
You want to bury men like Tate? You start getting boys off the internet entirely.
In the old days when you disappeared into a cult, you physically went to live with them and everything.
These days it’s “cult to go.” Good luck intervening and cutting off their link to the cult when the cult is speaking to them from their pocket.
I miss those days, they’d go be weird on their own and not drag the rest of us into this crap
Its the Boisphere. No men are involved.
Just based on what I see women doing around me all the time, there were probably some warning signs. Looking for a dude that’s “traditional” or whatever is asking for a dude that’s going to see you like a form of livestock. It’s partly a politics thing, but largely an assholes thing.
41% of young men support Tate versus just 12% of young women.
WTF those are both shockingly high.
I support Tate…
…Being locked in prison for the rest of his life.
But first I would really like him to receive a serious public ass-beating, recorded for posterity. I feel like that would be worse for him than the prison time.
If you just translate the figures to “41% of young men, 12% of young women are stupid assholes”, they make a bit more sense.
There are many different ways to be a stupid asshole, and you can even do it while at the exact opposite end of the political spectrum.
Confirmed. Sometimes I start a sentence and don’t even know what my point is until I get to the end of it! I am a total fool. But at least I’m not a fuckin chud.
Yup. In the last week or two, I managed to snort shampoo. I wasn’t trying to get high; I’m just operating at that level of organisation.
I’m not personally a left-wing asshole, although that’s more of a show thing than a tell thing. But, I’ve gotten to know plenty. The point being that thinking Andrew Tate is cool is a very specific kind of dumb and/or mean.
Still, 41% sounds absolutely critical level, like we need to stop all society and have a conversation, because that is so uncool.
Fucking 41… Like that is a plurality. That is a whole fucking lot of wrong people. That is entirely too many bros. I’m not sure I can impart just how disappointing that number is.
It is disheartening but still tracks with how I’ve seen older boys / younger men for decades.
Rachel, who is in her 30s and lives in London, met her partner on the popular dating app Hinge, and was struck by his generosity. He insisted on buying her gifts and giving her cash to spend. She thought her now ex-partner was a “normal, decent guy”.
Yeah…
I mean, it’s a tale as old as time.
Shitty males buy females thing to avoid being held accountable.
There isn’t anything wrong with a traditional worldview but it certainly doesn’t fit most modern relationships. Either way I think all young men go through an idiot phase where it’s easier to complain about the systems in place then to be introspective and improve yourself. I’m saying most people usually go through a redpill phase and if they are able to sympathize then it’s usually a short phase. The bigger worry for me is that it seems a larger and larger amount of men are unable to sympathize with others.
Depends what you mean by “traditional worldview”. I’ll go ahead and say young earth creationism shows a lack of openness to objective reality when it’s not personally convenient.
In the context I mean, what gets justified with tradition is behavior like putting on a fake persona when dating, pushing boundaries, disregarding the rights of strangers around them and generally being an entitled, eventually controlling dickwad. They’ll say that’s what men have always done, and boys will be boys or whatever, but I’m certain nobody had to “twist their arm”.
When I see one of those dudes dragging a girl around, I have to wonder if she’s chasing a kink. That’s not how you go about it, if so. 50 Shades of Grey was fiction.
I want to say that’s a young person thing but I’m not really sure. I know the world would be a much better place if say Alan Watts was a household name instead of Andrew Tate.
I had to look it up, but it sounds like he was a new age/counterculture personality. I don’t really see the connection.
The bigger worry for me is that it seems a larger and larger amount of men are unable to sympathize with others.
Not unable, unwilling. It requires them to be ‘weak’ and concede that they may be part of the problem. I say this as a man that had to work through some of this shit when I was young.
I agree on the “weak” part, being able to empathize with orders requires that you be able to admit your own faults, but I think empathy is actually a high-intellect ability. It’s deeper than being just uninformed.
So, we should only listen to one party’s complaints?
No one said that.
Right, it was implied though.
Essentially, we shouldn’t listen to the men complaining but the men should listen to you complaining?
No. We’re saying you should look inward and address your own short-comings and poor behaviors before looking to blame external sources for your issues. No one is saying anything about what men should listen to.
No one implied that.
I disagree.
Usually it’s the ‘modern’ women who have been convinced to be treated like livestock. Nothing very traditional about going to raves or wearing pasties.
There’s green-tea smelling book clubs too if that’s more their speed, but a lot of people think raves are fun. Same for the pasties; they’re an option, but it sounds like hipsters in a version of full Victorian dress are just as much of a thing. The central fact being that they get a choice.
The various cultures around the world have many, often contradicting versions of traditionalism. My own tells a good story about women having “respect”, but it’s a version of respect that doesn’t require much from men.
Listen to a random country song. There’s a party with cheap beer, where the women are just potential bedpost notches, but the protagonist goes to church on Sunday and feigns piousness, so they still get to be One of the Holy Ones™. A girl’s dad shows up and defends her “honour”, but it’s implied he did the exact same shit when he was young, and at no point are her preferences considered at all. The song ends with a thinly veiled plug for the pickup truck company sponsoring the artist.
It’s easy to see why dudes who hew to that are just looking for a way to justify how shitty they always were, underneath it all. Because in practice I see that all the time, living where I do.
Im in a bubble where these guys are like the most laughable parody of themselves so maybe I’m biased but… I mean nobody is taking this kind of stuff serious right? I mean cool, free speech and such but dumb behavior had consequences, right?
People absolutely take this stuff seriously. The problem is the most bone headed guys are the ones likely to fall for this stuff. Once they’re sucked in it’s hard to convince them otherwise.
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Yeah, I’m studying to be a teacher and have had several internships during my education.
Young teen boys, 12-15, are into it. They aren’t a majority, but they exist. One of the students came to me and asked if I knew what the matrix was. He was really into redpill shit! Had many conversations with him and hope he hasn’t gone deeper.
The redpill shit can look really innocent at first. They start off with a lot of talk about self improvement, and that’s great and all. It’s just not too many steps away from the gaslight your bitch stuff.
Taking the red pill means different things to different people.
I hope one day we can have psychologists seriously study and analyze the meaning behind such an idea and how it can be such a powerful tool.
Does that make the Wachowskis some kind of prophets to them?
No, the Wachowskis are trans and therefore bad.
X-pill has transcended the artist’s intent, much like Pepe the Frog. Feelsbadman
Isn’t the manosphere pretty transphobic? I would assume they have pretty much divorced all Matrix concepts from the Wachowskis by now.
They definitely are, more and more, it’s the same as every popular movement. They pad the propaganda with legitimately good advice and some controversial but easily supportable facts. That makes the more controversial items easier to swallow.
It’s probably 50/50.
50% of the people are using it as entertainment and laughing at/encouraging those who take it seriously. We can call them the ‘trolls.’
50% of the people are actually taking it seriously and don’t know any better. We can call them the ‘tools.’
You caught on early, and rejected it. There are plenty of new recruits introduced every day, who are taking it seriously.
Isn’t tate already old news for the manosphere?
there was plenty of warning signs for Years, even before the pandemic. if you look at how pickup artist operate, and then go on youtube. Tate isnt even a new phenemon, hes a culmination of the above problems. hes just the latest symptom, as was JOE ROGAN.
Agreed.
It’s clear though what kind of males fall for these influencers; the ones without good male role models or father figures in their lives.
Why don’t they have good male role models or father figures? I think it’s because they feel they can only choose between ‘cuck’ and ‘chad’ so when their insecurity flares up, they instinctively go with ‘chad.’
Balance is lost among men in our society. There’s no ‘firmness’ anymore. Either men are pensive emo teens, or they’re boisterous blowhards like tate.
Anyone in between is ignored and forgotten about.
Yeah but in the olden days they were on a print ad in the back of Popular Mechanics, not the leading talk show in the nation.
When I date people, I don’t allow myself to go forward without completing a mutual background check. I ask questions and talk about politics, tell about situations I’ve encountered and listen attentively.
I want to know about the other person’s world views, decision-making and problem-solving methods - and to inform them about my own. I want to know how they tell apart truth from a lie, what they think about state and centralization, wealth and poverty, science and religion, civil rights and minorities - and to inform them about what I think, so they could make informed decisions.
Ironically, I don’t wish to know what party they vote for - because the selection is shitty and I laugh about my own past choices. :)
Recalling situations where world views mismatched - I’ve had to part ways with one person because she was too spiritual. Two people subscribed to odd conspiracy theories. One person’s goals in life warned me about excessive self-interest and lack of care about others.
P.S.
Trying to switch perspective and step into the shoes of a woman, I think it can be a warning sign if the other person gives excessive gifts or feels “obligated to take care” - one should inquire about the reason. I would also be wary of people who eagerly accept me as the new centerpoint of their life - it might indicate an obsessive tendency and severe symptoms if the relation should break. If the other person exhibited jealousy about friends or controlling behaviour, that would be a definite warning sign to me.
P.P.S.
As for social media, yes, it can corrupt people’s perception of reality. How to pull them out of the bog, no idea. As for how to avoid them getting there: no algorithmically steered social media.
gives excessive gifts
Huge red flag. Becomes a tool of control (I was married into a wealthy family.)
The big thing is that they can change their personality after marriage - once you are trapped. There were red flags there, which I shouldn’t have ignored, but it was like night and day.
Mine started getting interested in stuff like religion - noticed that his pastor friend got to play WoW all day while the wife basically did everything.
I think it’s a good strategy but it’s not fool proof. They’ll tell you what you want to hear and then slowly start pushing your boundaries. Or they’ll pretend to be one way only to get what they want out of you.
Sure, but I don’t think it’s meant to be foolproof, it sounds like a great way to start
How to pull them out of the bog, no idea.
For my part I’ve just confessed my ignorance of what’s going on on the commercial web, and shared with them the kinds of conversations I’m have on the non-commercial parts (fedi, email, chats, smol web, etc), which are usually nicer and more productive.
Although to certain extent I still consider this here a form a social media… and I’m not actually sure that it’s good for us past a certain number of people. It might be “more cacophony than community” to quote one of Matthew Graybosch’s blog posts.
It is better here than on the mainstream social medias, though. That’s for sure for sure.
EDIT anyway, that’s a total aside. I just couldn’t help picking up that one thread. Good comment. I love your approach.
To answer the headline: divorce, I hope.
Divorce is in many case the trigger. The MGTOW-community was/is a lot of divorced men who feel mistreated by society, and blame women for it.
I remember being excited and thinking maybe I had found my people when I first heard about MGTOW thinking it would be dudes who realized maybe dating wasn’t for them and instead were just focusing on improving themselves. Then I looked at their subreddit and no, just a shitton of misogyny.
Yeah, on paper I’m a mgtow. After about 2 seconds I was like “wait, these people are losers.” Turns out I’m a relationship anarchist.
That’s the worst part of MGTOW. It’s a nice premise, and then they just dumped toxic waste on it.
IMO this is basically how society works. As soon as you rally more than a few people together under any singular form of identity (brand, activity, social movement), it turns toxic. So, by the time the label carries any meaning (e.g. MGTOW or even something like Feminist) the “voice” of the group becomes abrasive very quickly, and the internal ranks are filled with crazies that have so little meaning in their life that they actually enjoy forming their whole identity around a specific subject.
So you like cars and go to a car meet. You’ll meet a few cool folks. But the people there are just from the general population, with only one thing in common. If you find that you typically only really like 1/50 people you meet, you’re not going to find a higher ratio just because everyone likes cars, unless you literally value cars over all the other sociocultural aspects of your life. As a group, they’ll push ideals and causes that go overboard to support the thing they like. Maybe anti-biker or anti-evironmentalist sentiments, want more roads instead of better mass transit, etc… all sorts of things the average person who just “likes cars” may not be comfortable getting behind.
Tbf I suspect a lot of this developed from people moving from a “we” mindset during WW2 to the “me” mindset that came out of Reaganomics.
When humanity can no longer look at our neighbour and simply respect them - no matter their skin colour, religion or political viewpoint - that’s when the shit hits the fan.
And politicians have seen fit to feed this sickness rather than work towards unity … because peace doesn’t pay (or play) as well as divisiveness.
People are a problem.
And the more people the more problem.
There’s an old adage that you should never make life policy decisions based on how you feel in the moment. The MGTOW guys, even the “best” of them are stuck in a perpetual reaction state and thus their policy and mission statement are less actual tactics for finding comfort and peace, and more a reaction designed to elicit a response from other people.
It’s a tantrum. They’re all throwing a tantrum.
If you’re actually making your own decisions about if you want to date or not, you just do it, you don’t need to wear it like a uniform, you don’t actually need community support outside of whatever actual social circle you [should] already have in life. The MGTOW movement, even in the most charitable possible light, is massively performative and expecting some kind of attention. This is why they get increasingly vocal and toxic, they’re like the 11-year-old kid who packed all his favorite belongings in a checkerboard bindle over his shoulder and is at the front door shouting “I’M REALLY RUNNING AWAY NOW! FOR REAL! YOU’RE ALL GONNA BE SORRY!”
you don’t actually need community support outside of whatever actual social circle you [should] already have in life.
For me the interest was in having a group to talk with that was of the same mindset and knowing I wouldn’t have to deal with people complaining about their relationship issues or changing plans because of spouse/kids. Which is not something I have in life. I have individuals who I can talk with like that but if we get more than 3-4 of us together someone’s going to start bitching about relationship stuff.
Yeah though the vibe of that community was exactly as you described and not what I was looking for at all.
Self improvement is a trap and misogyny is the scapegoat. “I have a nice car/house/job/makes lots of money now but still women won’t fuck me, they must be evil!”. It’s always all about becoming some übermensh but never about finding a social context, which is what these men actually need.
Social identity is one of those things we never talk about, it’s something most people don’t even believe exists. But it’s so fundamental to who we are as a species that when it’s taken away, people will lose the will to live entirely even if they’re not depressed or have any mental illness. This has been researched to a great degree and we’ve made laws pertaining to how we treat prisoners because we’ve collectively determined that to take someone’s social identity away is tantamount to cruel and unusual punishment.
Meanwhile, we have all built an interconnected palace to finding ways to dismantle our own social identities online. It doesn’t matter how “introverted” you think you are or how reclusive you feel, you need a social identity to survive, you need other people, you need to define yourself in relation to others. It’s hardwired.
And scrolling on the internet doesn’t fill this gap. You can’t get that self-inflection from reading other people’s thoughts in your own head. You have to engage with others to find yourself, and if you don’t, you slowly become more and more withdrawn and distant and you start to blame these dark feelings on everything else, because how do you even identify a cause or a syndrome that we don’t even have language for in most cases? How many 18-year-old boys who don’t know how to talk to girls are thinking “I need to exercise my social capacity to better find my own values”? When it’s so much easier to find a forum that says you’re the one who’s right and true and honest, and the world is against you.
When economic independence is rare, divorce is rare.
I guess getting rid of no fault divorces helps that too
Seriously I’ve already had this conversation with my husband. If no-fault divorce seems imminent we are divorcing preemptively.
Yes. It is worth trying to address issues first, especially with kids/finances involved, but if nothing works divorce still does.
I would no longer recommend marriage tbh
You leave them.
Get a new partner… they’re gone
Even if they come back. It’s not worth the labour to hold their hand through that shit. Maybe their mom or dad can talk some sense into them, but I sure as shit wouldn’t want to live with someone like that while they figure out how to screw their head back on straight.
deleted by creator
witch caused cognitive dissonance
Ahhh it was the witches all along
Before we rush to judgment about witches. We really should test them to make sure that they are witches.
Ooh maybe some sort of test in the water?
We have to see if the witches float!
I’ll get the giant scale
I’ll find a duck.
YES! A swimsuit competition!
i think if your husband has weird ideas about women you’re supposed to argue with him or something
Ideally, you have these “arguments” well ahead of time before you marry someone who has fucked up attitudes about anyone, anywhere.
People can absolutely change and “wake up” to realize that the shit they’re holding onto is going to cost them their future and they will absolutely change for the better when they care for someone else and want a better future. But not everyone is willing or capable of self-examination, and many are also not willing or capable of making changes.
Find out before you both have your names on a mortgage or carton of eggs together.
I have for almost my entire life been entirely too accommodating of other people. My husband has some issues, but a lot of them are small, lack malice or unintentional. Such is human interaction. He is a self declared feminist, however its taken a few years of us being together before he started doing half the cleaning and things like his own laundry. We both work full time. Such is society.
He smokes 🌳 daily, i smoke 🚬 infrequently. He hates that I do, says he wants a divorce if he catches me and is quite controlling about it tbh. So I’ve always hidden it from him, I usually smoke 10 a week when I’m smoking and when I dont smoke I go 3-24 months without one. Last night I realized I’m a grown ass woman being treated like a child and I’m enabling the behavior. So I told him I was going outside to smoke. He kicked up his normal fuss, but this morning he initiated a conversation about it calmly and we spoke about it like adults.In the same way that the patriarchy harms both men and women, misogyny is upheld by both men and women. Not to equal levels of course on either count, but im so proud of all the people, men and women, who can call this shit out. It took me entirely too long in this example.
(Also lol at the carton of eggs joke)
The culture war swung too far in a certain direction between 2012-2023 and this is the inevitable result. I saw this coming from a mile away.
Can you give some examples? Do you mean the Supreme Court legalizing gay marriage in 2015? The #metoo movement in 2017? Black Lives Matter protests in 2020?
What do you think has gone too far?
I applaud legalized gay marriage and BLM protests.
No, it pretty much just comes down to demonizing men, constantly, to the point that they are not even allowed to stand up for themselves. Just standing up for men when they get generalized is enough to get you censored now.
That’s why you’ve lost gen z men. It’s not some mystery.
I agree with him, but I also respect his decision not to answer.
Unfortunately, people like you can’t stand when someone says something you don’t like so you constantly try to pull them into a debate.
Not everyone is worth replying to, regardless of how much they beg for a response.
I’m a bigoted asshole and I have good reason. No, I won’t elaborate. No, nevermind that my name is Pablo.
