In three weeks, Donald Trump has imploded whatever positive image the United States might have had internationally.
Trump is creating a lot of enemies. Even turning allies into enemies. The reputation usually mostly recovers when there’s a Democrat in the WH, but since American voters walked right back into the same chaos again, eyes wide open, it’s going to be a lot harder to recover this time around. There’s just very little trust and credibility left.
America’s wealth is tied up in perceptions. When the rest of the world views America the way I currently view Tesla, we’re going to have some very big economic problems. And of course we already have huge security and safety issues as blow back for turning on our allies. It’s impossible for me to imagine this isn’t all a deliberate attempt to destroy America. And we all know which world leader Trump worships who is very very interested in causing that.
I feel like saying it’s normal for empires to fall due to external causes is not accurate? It’s usually the exception. Maybe the external factor is the final kick, knocking over a rotting house of cards, but the cause is almost always division, internal conflict, or unsustainable growth. An empire is much more likely to collapse under its own weight than it is to have Alexander the Great kick its teeth in. The Ottoman Empire was called “The Sick Man of Europe” for a reason.
It’s absolutely not. It’s their very internal policies that force them into destroying themselves. They start believing their own propaganda. For both Rome and Constantinople it was wasting huge amounts of it’s power on fighting Persia and trying to extend its borders in ways that outran it’s logistics capacity. For the Ottomans it was the rise of nationalism and their ham fisted attempts to combat it. For the modern Western imperialists it was the base fact that direct colonial rule was always a monetary drain for the state and only made businesses money. Making these stupid decisions was because each empire had created a web of political commitments and internal propaganda that was unsustainable.
The Roman Empire took centuries to eventually collapse and a lot of it was corruption, hyperinflation, and complacency. It’s happening here but at a much quicker rate.
Maybe the external factor is the final kick, knocking over a rotting house of cards, but the cause is almost always division, internal conflict, or unsustainable growth.
Rome was a place where power consolidated, but the various eras might as well have been different empires.
The system collapsed, dissolved, reconstituted, and expanded several times during the 1400 years it existed.
Same with China. 5000 years of history emerging from Beijing, but each dynasty was distinct.
Even the US has reinvented itself several times over by now. Antebellum America might as well have been a different country. New Deal America was radically different from it’s Coolidge Era predecessor. Reagan’s America became it’s own thing in turn. Trumpian America is a new thing, not an end point.
Didn’t Constantinople outlast the Persian empire by quite a while?
They did, and were so weak and ineffectual afterwards that they even got sacked by the crusaders. It was essentially a long decline.
Anacyclosis, Polybius was motivated by the fall of the Hellenistic society. When Rome conquered Greece it was unfathomable to them that they could ever even be conquered, let alone so quickly. They were swept aside in such a rapid fashion that it was a cultural shock.
The US has this image of being unassailable, but the reality is that apathy is the greatest enemy we have ever faced. We have no faith in our leadership, and we’re short on supply of actual warriors despite what the keyboard warriors would have everyone thing.
All the gun toting rednecks driving large pickup trucks shrink when they’re actually confronted with anything, and we’ve devolved into a system of cowards.
The day America stands up and puts the ruling class heads on spikes, that’s the day the rest of the world should fear, but the rest of the world can just live comfortably knowing we’re all weak and worthless.
Seriously, just look up “peopleofwalmart”, that’s the insanely low bar we go by these days.
but the cause is almost always division, internal conflict, or unsustainable growth.
I refer to it as atrophy. Once it becomes easier and more profitable for the empire to exploit its own populace instead of others, this is what we get.
LOL empire. They haven’t lasted for even a century. It will be a footnote in history.
The US…?
This fucker just swings at everyone.
I think someone shit on their waffle this morning.
yes
Damn and they say American education is bad.
Well then, enlighten me and tell me exactly from when to when you consider them an empire?
Probably from the moment of our emancipation from England. Occupied more territory than most European states ever had at that moment.
If you want to be pedantic about it how about when we occupied the width of an entire contenant? September 9th 1850
We didn’t spring fully formed from Zeus’s forehead to fund the destruction of the Reich.
from the moment of our emancipation from England.
I was asking from what year, decade even to what year. This is as vague as it gets. If I wanted to be pedantic I would ask what a “contenant” is. That date you mention is about California? I think you don’t get what being an empire means. It’s not having a really big country.
But it’s been around for more than two centuries?
As a country. Britain, Spain, Portugal have been around for much longer as a country. That period is not as long as they have existed in the capacity or form of being an ‘empire’.
1787 was less than 100 years ago? Because that’s when their Constitution was ratified.
Also their revolutionary war was 1776 to 1783.
How wrong are you willing to be?
They may be referencing the USA’s increased international hegemony starting after WWII rather than the founding of the nation.
Either way they are off
In just over three weeks, Donald Trump has been able to redefine the United States’ position in the world from a global power to an international outcast.
This is exactly what people uttering “Make America Great Again” were asking for when they chose Trump to be the figurehead. None should be surprised.
As a European I’m all for it. Fuck up your own country for once and leave the rest alone. Nobody needs the corrupt self-declared policeman of the world
At the low low price of a few million brown people
The Roman Empire fell because of a series of invasions by “barbarian tribes.”
I cannot take this author seriously after they wrote this. It was, you know, just a little more complicated than that.
I don’t think the author meant that seriously. You see the quote around “barbarian tribes”? I think he considered this notion sarcastically, as this is “barbarian tribes” is often used by people less knowledgeble abou the topic.
And for the US to implode within a few weeks, there must have been considerable rot inside. I am really not sure where precisely it started, but I consider Bretton Woods (both the system and it’s breakdown), Nixon with the final breakdown of honor in politics, Reagan and his “trickle-down economy” lie Reageanomics, and Bush Junior with his Gulf War key milestones in that process. Notice a trend? They were all Republicans. That Trump puts the final nail into the US’ coffin is only consequential.
Isn’t it crazy for Nixon to be a point of honor? Recent presidents have gotten away with a lot worse, but there is no resignation in dishonor, there are no consequences, nobody cares any more
This is actually a big part of what keeps pushing me farther left. The party of righteousness, fairness, strict legal enforcement, strictly adhering to the constitution, was always dishonest but they’ve completely dropped any pretenses in favor of outright criminality, corruption, throwing out the constitution, enriching their corporate benefactors. They no longer even pretend that oppression is about family values anymore or that we will be trickled upon
What made Rome fall?
It’s a rather complex topic, but the short answer isn’t barbarian invasion.
The simplest correct answer is the Roman elite became less interest in preserving the Roman state and more interested in increasing their own personal wealth and influence.
Hey that sounds like the USA
We’re doing the thing! Yay!
high five
What’s wild is that “being Roman” persisted a lot longer than the tax system and patronage networks that had collapsed. It wasn’t until a large portion of the people who thought of themselves as “Roman” were invaded by the Eastern Roman Empire that the Roman identity was broken up, to be replaced by the regional identities that people rallied around to defend themselves.
I feel like if the ERE’s leaders had taken a different approach, they could have stitched the Western Empire back together, but they broke it.
Also people stopped having enough kids
That’s potentially a global problem. It’s not specific to the US as long as we keep making ourselves an attractive destination for immigrants and keep welcoming them ………… crap
define “enough kids” for me please.
do you mean enough kids that their parents can’t feed them off their own little farm, and the kids had to be sent to the cities as slave / poor workers, so that the machines can keep churning for the sake of profit?
edit: sorry but i’m pissed and angry now. “not enough kids” like what? not enough kids to make sausage of them? not enough kids to burn them in the kettle of capitalism? not enough kids to flood the labor market with undervalued workers?
i tell you what, it’s capitalist propaganda that “people should have more kids”, because they think it makes the wages fall. what it actually does is create poverty, mass unemployment, working poor, and civil unrest. may the empire be intoxicated by its own poison. may the corporations fall due to the civil unrest that they helped create.
Like the birth rate was too low overall.
Of course more people makes wages fall. That’s why immigration is so popular in western world.
There are whole books on that topic, but this article gives a very basic explanation of some of the major factors that were involved.
Thanks
It all started with the reform known as the Pax Romana. Rome stopped waging wars that kept the influx of slaves, which were fundamental for their economic model. They didn’t realize the implications of such a decision and didn’t design a viable alternative in time.
It was the barbarian tribes, the kids are just being pedantic lmao
it took 100 or so years to really collapse and effective organization and leadership were big factors in that process. They didn’t lose a war and poof, everything was over, they were always fighting several other civilizations for dominance, they started consistently losing when the soldiers started showing up in rags.
deleted by creator
Take a history class.
deleted by creator
The United States is imploding. The reign of Donald Trump is not only challenging and threatening the very foundations of its constitutional democracy, it is calling into question the U.S.’s post-World War II hegemonic role. Empires or hegemonic powers rise and fall. Often they are defeated by emerging powers. Sometimes their decline takes place over time. But rarely do they self-destruct as spectacularly as the U.S. is doing. The U.S. implosion is dramatic in its intensity and rapidity. In just over three weeks, Donald Trump has been able to redefine the United States’ position in the world from a global power to an international outcast. Despite whatever military and economic power the U.S. still has, its image and global leadership have been undermined by President Trump’s foreign policy decisions.
I just want to take a short, though probably unpopular, note that while you present it as something negative, to some people on the world, that’s actually something positive. There are communities all over the world who have suffered tremendously through the US’ global hegemony; and these people (me included) are sometimes actually in a very good mood about the news that have been coming the last few weeks.
If there was anything the US was good at, it would be marketing. Creating the image that it’s the greatest nation on earth, influencing mainstream media to tell their version of the story, keeping up appearances of a strong nation.
The moment these smoke clears and the mirrors break, that is when we see the real US. I think we have Trump to thank to show it to us.
Once, the US was actualy very food at funding innovation. The shit that Bell Labs alone discovered are things that shape the world today. But in the nature of US capatialism, if discovery can’t turn I to profit, why bother? It’s easier to market 2nd or 3rd place as 1st, then to actually be the 1st, especially if the Chinese are constantly breathing down you neck.
One of the stories about the US that I find inspirational is how, during the space race, NASA relied on various experts from somewhat unconventional places. It’s what I always think about at times like this, because it’s a snippet of what I consider to be genuine greatness, amongst all the propaganda and geopolitical awfulness.
The first example is how the Apollo spacesuits were sewn by seamstresses from an underwear company. This was because they needed craftspeople skilled enough to be able to reliably cut fabric and sew seams within a margin of error of a fraction of a millimetre. Whereas in regular garment manufacturing, you can typically tear out incorrect stitches and try again, this wasn’t possible for the spacesuit, so they needed to be perfect first time; many of the fabrics they were working on were so cutting edge that they needed to be locked away in a safe when not working on them. Synthetic fabrics were still fairly new, and this partly explains why an underwear manufacturer had seamstresses who were up to this challenge — the group of sewists who worked on the spacesuit were probably among the most experienced people in the world at sewing synthetic fabrics, and this experience allowed them to be an active part of the design and manufacture process for the spacesuits.
Another example from the same era is when NASA engineers were having difficulty getting the honeycomb insulating material they were using to adhere to the shuttle. This part of the program was happening near Seal Beach, in California, and when it was discovered that the local surfers were already experienced in using a material like this for their surfboards, NASA hired a bunch of the surfers to work with their engineers to figure out the problem. There’s a quote I absolutely adore from Donald Binns, a Project Engineer with North American Aviation[1]:
“[The surfers] did a great job with it. The only downside of those guys was that when the surf was up, there was a big absentee problem — they were out there doing their trick.”
I just find this incredibly sweet, because it captures both the strength and the difficulty of working with diverse skill sets. If ever there was greatness to be found in the US, we can see it in stories like this. I think this spirit of innovation has been lost over the years, due to the pressures of capitalism on individuals in particular.
Edit: forgot to add link for quote citation
[1]: Quote is from episode 1 of the 2008 documentary “Moon Machines”, accessible via the internet archive. Insulation section starts at around 16:45 https://archive.org/details/moon-machines/Moon+Machines+Part+1+The+Saturn+V+Rocket.mp4
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Unfortunately they believe their own bullshit
The education system has one goal: teach people critical thinking. In the US they deliberately did the opposite, that’s why there’s so many idiots. That and the fact that mass media is amazing at spewing propaganda
Well, you have to drink the kool-aid because there’s lead in the tap water.
Like, as much as i have to complain about the US meddled in other countries, i have to disagree that they only were good at marketing.
Lots of technology have been developed in the US, primarily computer chips and everything that has to do with it, including the internet. That can be a good invention, depending on what you use it for.
You should be fair and give credit where due, and part of the US’ power was because of technological proficiency. Of course, other countries also achieved good technological developments, like the Chinese with their solar panels, and the Europeans with lots and lots of scientific groundwork and cultural developments.
“The empire that defined the last century is falling apart at the seams. People notice.”
It’s not “falling apart.” It’s being intentionally dismantled.
Rubio’s statement at his conformation hearing was basically “the Post WWII order isn’t working for us, so we’re ending it.”
Intentionally dismantled by a fascist theocracy.
And the theocracy is faked
It always has been
Right from when Constantin co-opted the Jesus movement to use it for state control of people’s behavior.
Nah. Parts of it, sure. But a substantial portion from top to bottom sincerely believes the fairy tale. We’re primed to have an old-fashioned power struggle between The Church and The King.
As it should. The rise of fascism shouldn’t go unnoticed. The United States is capable of better but, the rot of capital needs to be expelled first.
It’s a cultural problem which is why Americans would rather have Trump over Bernie.
Even liberals prefer this because Trump isn’t going to make any effort to reduce the disparity in wealth.
I feel bad for the innocent Americans who are gonna suffer… people who honestly didn’t ask for or want any of this.
We may not have wanted any of this, but none of us are innocent. We all play our parts whether that’s the sociopathic capitalist or the empathetic commoner, with the consequences of our actions/inaction causing harm and suffering to the world. The very devices we’re having this discussion on were created with suffering.
We’ve collectively destroyed this entire planet - that was intended to sustain us all - so none of us are innocent, except the children who’ve no idea yet what right and wrong even mean. As for the rest of us, there are very real degrees of guilt and also sincere ignorance, and also repentance… if not, we would all deserve to just lay down and let evil roll over us.
I mean the conservatives definitely asked for this, as did the democrats who didn’t vote, and the majority of Americans who don’t vote at all.
So you don’t believe there are any Americans who don’t deserve to suffer for what’s happening?
There is a minority who didn’t directly contribute to it, yes.
It was something like 48.5% of voters, maybe over 49% depending how you count third party voters
Ok, so we at least partially agree.
I mean, everyone who voted for Hillary/Biden in primaries wanted this.
They would rather have Trump than Bernie, so that’s what they got.
Article about how the states is falling apart.
Uses picture of a house no middle class family could reasonably afford.
say what you want about the brits, but they wouldn’t have voted for brexit twice.
They kept voting for the conservatives for a while after Brexit. They kept voting for Boris fucking Johnson.
To be fair the other side was just as much for brexit as the tories
To be fair, we don’t have only two options. The Greens, Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru, and SNP were all opposed to Brexit.
Except of Scotland none of these got enough votes, I guess it wasn’t important enough to sway most voters at that time.
You could say the same about the US though, but we still have the same shitty voting system that ultimately boils down to 2 parties barring massive upheaval.
Not at all, look at the linked map. We’ve only one party in ultimate control which flicks between the big two but we don’t have only 2 parties with any viable chance at politics at all. The SNP etc, despite having no executive power, still manage to influence political thought. The same can’t really be said for the USA in any meaningful way.
You underestimate Putin’s psyops and overestimate people’s intelligence.
Eh, they just haven’t had a second chance yet. That kind of bigotry enhanced stupidity doesn’t go away easily.
Well to be fair, you can’t exit something twice
You might think that, but the United States exited from the Paris agreement on climate change mitigation twice: Trump first withdrew in November of 2020, then Biden rejoined in February of 2021, and now Trump is withdrawing for the second time.
Except the UK didn’t rejoin the EU
yet
Don’t be so sure about that. That piece of excrement Farange is back.
You say that, but don’t forget they rejected alternative vote (abolishing FPTP) then voted for Brexit
falling apart➡️actively being destroyed since RBG passed awayIf only she had retired when there was a chance to replace her with a progressive instead of hanging in until she died.
“Progressive”!? I wouldn’t even be that optimistic. All she had to do was retire when her health was failing and Democrats could get someone fair and nonpartisan appointed.
Obviously a very intelligent woman yet so fucking stupid at the end. I wonder if she wasn’t already in the clutches of dementia when she decided Hilary was certain to win.
Sadly that’s what power does to people. It’s more addictive than crack, they can’t let go.
One, she should of retired under Obama, and two, the US has failed as a country since bush stole the 2000 election and nobody did shit about it.
Didn’t Obama have a chance to name a justice and kicked the can until Trump got there? These clowns are working for the same corporate circus.
Some say the US failed when it allowed Nixon to get away Scott free.
Didn’t Obama have a chance to name a justice and kicked the can until Trump got there?
Why the fuck are you blaming that on Obama instead of McConnell? That’s some fucking blatant spin.
Wow, so history is already being rewritten to change it into Obama fucking around and not bothering to nominate a Justice (the fondest dream of every president), instead of knowing that McConnell who was Senate majority leader (repubs controlled the Senate), blocke it and refused to allow a vote on Obama’s nominee (Merrick Garland). JFC, it wasn’t even that long ago and people have already forgotten, or never bothered to pay attention in the first place, or believed some propaganda they came across. We’re so doomed.
Hand shaking meme:
Fascists 🤝 Leftists
Center: Using misinformation to blame Democrats for literally everything.
Leftists need to grow some damn braincells and accept responsibility for putting the US in this situation.
Russia loves how easily manipulated they are.
And the democrats did nothing to stop the blatant power grab. They always act powerless and republicans do whatever the fuck they want.
The Democratic Party is the Washington Generals. They’re part of the show, but they’re not there to win.
Not punishing the Confederacy, in my opinion, is where this country went to hell.
Agreed. They should have hanged the Southern elite, and occupied the former confederate states under martial law for at least three generations.
RBGHarambe
In our hubris we put our dicks away. We were warned of the consequences and we didn’t listen. Indeed, the only way forward is forward is, once again, DICKS OUT FOR HARAMBE!
Sigh… unzips
actively being destroyed since
RBG passed awayThe Nixon administration.
RBG
who?
Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Though I’d hardly signal her death out as the defining factor or turning point of the US’s decline…
Some would say Reagan, but personally I think it was doomed from the wild west days. Rugged individualism bred the selfish nature that’s led to where it is today.
We were built on a native American genocide. Maybe they cursed us lol.
In theory, if Ruth Bader Ginsberg chose to retire when she was sick, instead of continuing to act on her principles until she died in office, we wouldn’t have a Conservative dominated Supreme Court. It would have changed who got to appoint her successor.
Ruth Bader Ginsberg - supreme court justice
It’s like watching an old friend sink into senility. The person you know is slowly being replaced by something else and you are powerless to stop it.
Living in it is like that individual, but that individual is head of the household, has all the money and keys, has locked the door and is wildly armed.
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Rome eventually fell, All Empires do eventually
A more apt comparison is Sparta. The bulk of the work was done by (wage-) slaves, the citizens lived in constant paranoia of an upheaval, constantly fighting real and imaginary enemies both domestic and foreign. Persia (Russia) worked in the shadows to undermine the state, and their frenemies the Athenians (Europeans) are viewed with distrust and contempt. Other city states (China, Israel, the Arab countries) would flip-flop their allegiance depending on circumstance.
